Biotest

Surge Workout Fuel vs. Plazma


#1

I looking into these 2 supplements to help with a strength/endurance event I have coming up, I have already decided on Finibars for before the event and possibly during, but I was also looking at Plazma and or Surge Workout Fuel for during the event and possibly the week or so heading into the event.

I can’t tell a real difference,ingredient wise, between the two.

Was hoping for some experiences with Plamza vs Surge Workout Fuel, I’m not looking for a pump, I’m looking for performance and recovery between events of this brutal Competition. thanks


#2

<a href="http://www.t-nation.com/store/products/finibar-competition-bar"target=“new”>Finibars are perfect for competitions, pre and even during for longer events. Good choice.

Think of <a href="http://www.t-nation.com/store/products/plazma"target=“new”>Plazma as our most advanced training or competition supplement. While it shares some ingredients with previous formulas, Plazma has been amped up for the most elite trainers and competitors, with the perfect ratio and amounts of active ingredients.

It’s used from everyone from pro-bodybuilders and CrossFitters to extreme endurance athletes. Most people who used Surge Workout Fuel or Anaconda previously have upgraded to Plazma and won’t go back. Check out the report from one endurance athlete <a href="http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_supplements_biotest/plazma_and_endurance_athletes"target=“new”>HERE.


#3

Chris;
My name is Steve. I am a 170 lb, 52 year old 12% bodyfat athlete that is headed to Leadville, Colorado to do an EPIC mountain bike race in August - the Leadville 100 mountain bike race. It is characterized by extreme conditions; weather, altitude and course. Athletes in this scenario are subject to extreme nutritional challenges and MUST be dialed in perfectly to succeed. Many other “fuels” for extreme racing have failed me in the past.

I am looking to AVOID classic problems such as stomache distention, bloating, GI tract absorption issues, CRAMPING, and bonking. The perfect fuel provides amazing energy, absorbs easily, provides the right blend of electrolytes to avoid cramping and in the end - helps the athlete have an amazing day of racing.

I have been told that SURGE for racing and Metabolic Drive for recovery are the perfect products for me.
Can you comment?


#4

r13537,

Leadville is legendary! Very impressive that you’re doing the Leadville 100 mountain bike race!

A couple of things:

  1. Sadly, endurance and endurance/adventure race supplements are decades behind the times. It’s really quite sad, but it’s also exciting for Biotest because we know there’s a huge need here for serious endurance athletes.

Our first foray into this type of sport was when we worked with several Olympic bicyclists. In fact, one our supplements was originally custom-made for these athletes (<a href="http://www.t-nation.com/store/products/finibar-competition-bar"target=“new”>Finibar) and since has been adopted by bodybuilders and other athletes as well.

  1. Years ago, one of the Surge products and Metabolic Drive may have fit your needs just fine, but we’ve made great advancements in recent years. Right now, <a href="http://www.t-nation.com/store/products/plazma"target=“new”>Plazma is our most advanced training and competition supplement. Plazma and Finibars are specifically designed to avoid all the problems you listed and be used before and during extreme training or sports.

Check out the program Tim Patterson (Biotest head honcho) created for this extreme endurance athlete and his results in the thread <a href="http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_supplements_biotest/plazma_and_endurance_athletes"target=“new”>HERE. You would need something similar for your event, but probably not nearly that amount given the duration difference in the two sports.

Let us know what you think after reading that thread and we can advise you further. Also, we need to know the average time an event like this takes for an athlete at your level.


#5

Thanks so much!
The average time for an event like this is in the 10-12 hour range. The extreme challenge really comes from altitude which translates into a lack of available oxygen…so the typical athlete is running in higher aerobic zones for extended periods of time. You know what that means - less fat utilization and more carbohydrate utilization.

Since the typical athlete can’t digest more than ~300 calories per hour without severe stomach issues, there is a limit to how much carbohydrate can be absorbed. The fine tuned athlete can metabolize body fat efficiently at higher heart rates. The premere performing fuels support easy digestion and maximum carbohydrate absorption without stomach upset. It also minimizes catabolizing protein for fuel.

My personal experience (though I have not recently measured it) is a caloric burn rate of ~600-700 calories per hour for sustained, strong efforts.

I would be very interested to see what kind of dosing the pro’s at TNation would recommend. Also - We’ve talked about Finibar and Plasma for during - but the protocol for JN was MAG-10 pulse (for recovery I assume).

Also interested to know how to dose for a mountain bike race vs a running event. Very different events!

Thanks so much!
Steve


#6

Hey Steve,

I had heard about the inability to process more than 300 calories during intense activity (and believe that to be true with most food and drinks), but I handled 400+ calories an hour of Plazma for 12 hours! No GI distress at all. Maybe a little gas, but I had my large intestine removed 5 years ago, so who knows. Anyway, no issues there and that had been a big issue for me in the past. You’re going to need those extra calories to get up Hope Pass!

I have a buddy that will be running the the Leadville Trail 100 in August. I might be going there to pace him the last 25 or so. I look forward to hearing how your race goes and how any supplement protocol assists you.

Do you normally eat any solid food while riding?


#7

JN7844 is correct. A carb is not a carb. The carbs in Plazma (nutrient-partitioning functional carbohydrates – highly branched cyclic dextrins) are nothing like, say, the carbs in pasta, a banana, or even a PowerBar. So those old “rules” probably don’t apply.

I’d like to see what Tim Patterson would advise for your event. Stay tuned.


#8

Thanks to everyone for the comments! I received my shipment last night of the following products:

Plazma
MAG-10
Indigo-3G
HOT-ROX Extreme
FiniBars

We have a local ride in Phoenix we lovingly call the “Ahwatukee World Championships”…Roadies from all over the valley come out for this 2 hour hard core “attack and chase” style of riding. Essentially you fly from aerobic to anaerobic in ~10 seconds on an attack. One moment you could be crusing 24mph, next thing you know you are going 35-40mph. The terrain is varried, with lots of hills and some super fast flats as well. I decided that an excellent test would be to take my mountain bike out to ride with these crazies! LOL!

I mixed up the Plasma per instructions. I did discover that one should use the flavoring SPARINGLY as it is super strong! LOL! It’s HOT in Arizona, so I simply diluted the fuel and calmed down the strong taste. I drank one serving about 1/2 hour prior to ride start. I carried another serving on my ride with me. I did not take any other food or supplements with me. One other note - I only had about 5 hours of sleep the night prior - so my tank was not “full”.

I expected to hang on for about 10 minutes prior to getting dropped - but I found myself sticking with the group for the entire 1st loop (we do two loops). This shocked me as there were points where we were hitting 38 mph and my MTB gearing can not support that speed - so I was turning over 140+rpm in an attempt to keep on the train! Second loop I hung in there for a good portion of the loop - but could not hang on near the end. I don’t believe that to be fuel related - but more sleep related plus, I was on a mountain bike! LOL!

Once I returned home I made a serving of MAG-10 and consumed it (DO NOT attempt to drink mag10 w/o flavoring it! LOL). I also took one dose of Indigo 3G and one HOT-ROX.

This was one giant guessing game today - I based my consumption off of my projected need for carbs. In Az we need a lot of water because of the dehydration factor so I need to get a better feel for my true caloric need per hour (with this product) and place that number of calories in a minimum of one bottle with water - as I need to drink min of 24 oz water per hour in the heat.

I do like to eat solid foods when I train long - thus the purchase of FINiBARS! They will replace my power bar consumption.

My thought for long training rides where I can NOT carry premixed Plazma is that I create a "pre mixed " paste and then mix it on the fly with water - in my bottles. I would love to hear thoughts on that.

Other questions:
Did I preload correctly?
Did I do right by myself using the MAG10 right after the workout?
Should I be taking in other sups during the training / racing?

Thanks everyone!
Steve


#9

Good report! Awesome you did that on your mountain bike!

If you didn’t this time, be sure to take your Indigo-3G before the event next time. You can take it with your pre-load Plazma dose. That will insure that all the nutrients are driven deep into the muscle cells.

Mag-10 post-race is an excellent choice and will speed recovery and get you ready to go again soon instead of feeling banged up for days. You can drink a serving right after the race, then another an hour after that.

Finibars will be a noticeable improvement over your previous bar choice. (It’s scary what they stick in most endurance bars and gels these days; they’re practically junk food.) An hour pre-event is a good time to have one.

Tell us again why you can’t use Plazma during the long rides? Is it just a matter of having space to store it? Also, do your events have hydration stations or anywhere someone could pass you a Plazma ready to go? (I used to meet my wife at the halfway mark during her 10 mile running races and pass her what she needed.) Your idea sounds good though, as long as you can add adequate water.


#10

Thanks Chris
Our typical training rides in Az are super early due to heat and I will go through one bottle of water per hour to stay hydrated…A typical ride will be 3.5 to 4 hours with the longest being on the order of 6 hours (70 to 120 miles). Frankly - I am no where near someone to provide the nutrition to - and consumption rate is a function of pace, heat and wind. Good guess is a bottle per hour. When I use products like Accelerade - I would just put a scoop in a baggie and carry it. Circle K stops to water up - dump powder into bottle / shake - rock n roll!

What I was thinking for the Plazma is since its nasty w/o the flavoring…I could get a small bottle like from a fuel belt, then mix the powder for say, 3 servings along with the flavoring and a small amount of water to make a “gel”. I could then simply squirt 1/3 of the gel into a bottle of water and shake…boom - I have the Plazma (fuel) on the road - no wife required for support (which she will appreciate)! I can also carry bars for back up.

So based on what you’ve told me - the following would be a great starting point for a typical say…4 hour training ride:

Pre-Load 1 serving of Plazma + Indigo-3G
Carry 1 bottle per hour worth of Plazma for fuel; bars for back up
Post ride consume MAG-10 for speedy recovery

Any other comments on the use of the Indigo-3G and the HOT-ROX?

Here are the goals:
Get as lean as possible while maintaining strength = strength / weight ratio goes way up!

DO NOT CRAMP during the race…MUCH of this is getting long, quality base training miles in - and a lot of it has to do with the right nutritionals during the events. One of my main reasons for choosing Plazma was the claim of being cramp free - so my focus on how to ensure this is HIGH!

As always I really appreciate the guidance!
1st 100 mile event is coming up on June 1st so there is no time to waste!
Steve


#11

We’d suggest not using HOT-ROX right now, at least not during a race. It’s just not a supplement meant to used during that type of sport.

Most Indigo-3G users have no need for a fat burner anyway. You’re fixing core issues with Indigo-3G which will lead to an improved physiology. The “fixed” nutrient uptake mechanisms and no-longer-dysfunctional fat cells will take care of fat loss (provided there are no regular stops at the fast food drive-thru of course!)

Other than that, your plan looks solid.