Biotest

Plazma Super Stack, Day 1


#1

Hi!

So yesterday was Day One with the Plazma Super-Stack for me, a workout day.

It took a lot longer to prepare for the workout than I am used to, from first time preparation of a MAG-10 dose an hour before the workout, the Plazma (which, for me, was super-foamy and took about half an hour to settle down to about 3 inches of foam in that 2L Nalgene bottle), etc.

My workout ran from about 7pm-9:15pm. Normally, I try to go for 6-8pm.

Observations:

  1. Wow, I’m going to need to adjust to those tastes. I think extra water (at least in the Plazma case) is going to be necessary, and definitely more flavoring.

  2. I definitely was able to do more volume than I was used to, and my energy levels remained higher than normal, especially noticeable towards the end.

I have two main questions…

  1. I didn’t get to bed until 2am, at which point I did a dose of Metabolic Drive (8 oz). I woke up about 5 times between then and 6am, needing to go to the bathroom to void some liquid. After that, I managed to sleep until 9am. I figure that can’t be good for solid rest/recovery.

I’m concerned about tearing down the muscle during the workout and not being able to sleep enough to repair let alone supercompensate. Is there any special trick to manage all that liquid in a PM workout (500 mL MAG-10, 1500+ mL Plazma, 500 mL MAG-10), and still sleep through the night without all the bathroom breaks?

  1. Is there any special timing meant for off-days for the 3-4 MAG-10 pulses? I’m thinking on waking, in the afternoon maybe, and before dinner. (I know I’ve read advice about that here in the forum before, but I can’t seem to find it now.)

Cheers
=> Shadowhawk


#2
  1. Your body will adjust to the extra liquid. The best thing to do when you need to pee is go pee. No tricks necessary. It’s actually natural to wake up the middle of the night. It’s called first and second sleep. We have a good article on it in the archives.

  2. Yes, that’s a good plan. The general guideline is to pulse with Mag-10 between solid meals. And some people that don’t like to eat breakfast right away will have a pulse upon waking.


#3

Thanks again for replying, Chris. I always appreciate your input. I’ll look for that article, for sure.

In another thread ( http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_supplements_biotest/first_time_indigo_3g_user ), you mentioned that Indigo-3G increases work capacity. The same is true of Plazma, right?

So if you’re on the Plazma Super Stack, you should be ready to add work to your training program to take advantage of and truly push your capabilities, accelerating your gains, right?

I’m wondering what that might look like in the program that I’m using. I started a training log here: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/blog_sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_log/shadowhawk_stronglifts_5x5andbeyond?pageNo=0#5938834

Basically, I’m using a 5x5 program (Stronglifts), and Starting Strength’s warm-up calculator (iOS app), so, each day, I’m doing 3 exercises for 5 warm-up sets and 5 work sets. I’ve trained once with an SS-based coach for form and technique checking, and he recommends that I reduce the volume, saying that he thinks 5x5 is too much for me. (We were focusing on my low bar back squat, mostly.)

Work capacity, as I understand it, is a combination of intensity (weight used, in this context), volume (set/reps), and duration of the work.

So, to ramp up the work here, what would you suggest? The program is built on the assumption of weight progression for every workout. My volume seems pretty high already. It’s a strength rather than a conditioning program, so shortening my rest periods doesn’t seem like the right way to do it…

Would it be upping the weights or upping the size of my weight jumps from workout to workout?


#4
  1. Indigo-3G and Plazma, through a variety of mechanisms, will all you to train harder, longer, more frequently, recover faster, do at all again sooner and build more muscle.

  2. Honestly, I’d suggest you adopt a hypertrophy program. Bodybuild. Take advantage of the powerful supplements you’re using and seek hypertrophy. Tons of free programs available here, like John Meadows’ Reactive Pump. You need to be ramming Plazma into the muscle, not using all low reps. You need intensity techniques, partials, painful eccentrics, drop sets, etc. along with the strength work. We also have a program coming out Monday from Amit Sapir. You may not need that much volume, but the layout is something to look into.


#5

Hey there, Chris,

Thanks for you thoughts and advice!

I’m kind of interested in pushing for strength; I’ve read a bunch about how that works well as the basis for most athletic indicators, takes the longest to build, and sticks around the longest, etc. So I have a few strength goals that I want to hold onto as my primary targets for now.

Of course, hypertrophy would be great, too, and I’m expecting that the strength training will at least give me an increased base/mass of muscle from which to build further hypertrophy. I’m pretty much a beginner, so I’m still expecting that I have novice/linear strength gains ahead of me (along with the attendant muscle). Even after that, I thought I’d move to one of the “intermediate” strength programs…It’s true that all those programs are designed with natural vs the boosted recovery abilities of someone on Biotest’s supplements (Plazma + MAG-10, Surge Workout Fuel + Surge Recovery, etc.)

So, if I want to stick to those goals, and thus, the low reps for a while, and with the biggest benefit of Plazma being to pumped training, would I be better served with a different combination of supplements? Maybe Indigo-3G SWF + Surge Recovery, or Indigo-3G + MAG-10 + lower doses of Plazma (one dose pre? one dose pre + one dose during?), or just Indigo-3G + MAG-10?

As for training more often…I gotta say that I’m not looking to spend more time in the gym; as it is, I’m in there for about 2.5 hours start to finish three times a week. I’d rather cut those down than make them longer or more frequent… (so I might switch to a 3x5 plan vs the SL5x5 plan)…

What do you think would serve my goals best?


#6

Plazma will still be a great choice for strength work. All our pros use it in their strength phases. You may can use only the pre-load and one serving during if the volume is low though. Not sure how a beginner is spending 2.5 hours in the gym and only doing strength work though? You sound very Rippetoe influenced, and he’s a good influence to have. I’ve done his Starting Strength plan and even when I added more things to it (loaded carries and some arm work) I wasn’t in there but an hour. Maybe that’s not the style of training you’re using though.

Wait… Nevermind, just checked your log. Still, 2.5 hours? Our guys who train 2.5 hours at a time are using up to 8 servings of Plazma. Granted, they’re pro bodybuilders.

Honestly, I’d just stick to the label recommendations for now and definitely keep using Plazma. SWF and Surge Recovery are a bit outdated, though still popular, but Plazma is our most advanced formula. And with 2+ hours workouts, you sound like you need it!


#7

I’d say that I am indeed very Rippetoe oriented…Though my first exposure to the idea of the centrality of strength came from Charles Staley’s Muscle Logic. More recently, I got re-oriented into it after reading and starting in on StrongLifts (SL), but that didn’t have enough technique for me, so I used Rippetoe’s Starting Strength (SS) book, DVD, and online videos for the technique for most of the lifts SL uses.

After a bunch of ons and offs due to injuries and/or life, I’m back in on the SL program, but I’ve been using Rippetoe/SS’s iOS app for calculating my warm-ups. That pretty much generates 5 warm-up sets for each exercise. Add in 5 work sets for each exercise, and then three exercises…plus rest periods…It really seems to add up. I definitely don’t feel like I’m lollygagging in there, but I keep feeling surprised how long I’m taking. I might switch from SL to SS purely for the time savings of 2 sets per exercise, but I’m just worried that I’ll miss out on strength/muscle gains if I cut out those sets.

I think it was “Huge in a Hurry” (by Chad Waterbury?) which suggested that between 20 and 30 total reps was important, but I haven’t read that in a long time. That’s probably another source of my reluctance; 5x5 puts me in that range, while 3x5 doesn’t.

Hm, maybe it took longer yesterday than I remember to wait for a rack to free up.

How did you stay under an hour with SS? How many warm-up sets were you doing?


#8

In my humble opinion I would look into 5/3/1

I think what you need is a solid program that is thought out for you! You’ve got the best supplements now you just need to properly put them to work. Wendler’s done all your heavy thinking, you just need to lift. You’ll be able to focus on your strength gains and build some quality mass.

Stop worrying about missing out on strength and muscle gains because of 2 sets. Get a plan and attack it. I think that’s going to get you the best results you could possibly imagine.

Check out the 5/3/1 forum or some of the 5/3/1 articles:

http://www.T-Nation.com/searchResults.jsp?cx=016420786931182441572%3Akswwmllusns&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=5%2F3%2F1&siteurl=tnation.T-Nation.com%2Ffree_online_forum%2Fjim-wendler-531%3FpageNo%3D1%26s%3DforumsNavTop&ref=tnation.T-Nation.com%2Ffree_online_forum%2Fdiet_performance_supplements_biotest%2Fplazma_super_stack_day_1_sleep_quality_offday_mag10_pulse_timing&ss=768j149504j5


#9

[quote]Shadowhawk wrote:
I’d say that I am indeed very Rippetoe oriented…Though my first exposure to the idea of the centrality of strength came from Charles Staley’s Muscle Logic. More recently, I got re-oriented into it after reading and starting in on StrongLifts (SL), but that didn’t have enough technique for me, so I used Rippetoe’s Starting Strength (SS) book, DVD, and online videos for the technique for most of the lifts SL uses.

After a bunch of ons and offs due to injuries and/or life, I’m back in on the SL program, but I’ve been using Rippetoe/SS’s iOS app for calculating my warm-ups. That pretty much generates 5 warm-up sets for each exercise. Add in 5 work sets for each exercise, and then three exercises…plus rest periods…It really seems to add up. I definitely don’t feel like I’m lollygagging in there, but I keep feeling surprised how long I’m taking. I might switch from SL to SS purely for the time savings of 2 sets per exercise, but I’m just worried that I’ll miss out on strength/muscle gains if I cut out those sets.

I think it was “Huge in a Hurry” (by Chad Waterbury?) which suggested that between 20 and 30 total reps was important, but I haven’t read that in a long time. That’s probably another source of my reluctance; 5x5 puts me in that range, while 3x5 doesn’t.

Hm, maybe it took longer yesterday than I remember to wait for a rack to free up.

How did you stay under an hour with SS? How many warm-up sets were you doing?[/quote]

Sounds like you are resting WAY too long between your sets. If you have 5 warm up sets and 5 work sets per exercise, x3 exercises, you have 30 total sets. Let’s conservatively call each set 30 seconds (reality is probably 10 seconds or less if you’re in the 3-5rep range)…now we have 900seconds, or 15 minutes of total “work”. So what’s going on the other 2+ hours? Maybe 10 minutes of that is setting up a next exercise. My suspicion is that you’re taking 3-5min rest between each and every exercise- completely unnecessary. Warm up sets you don’t need more than a minute between, and you really don’t need much than 1-2min, 3 MAX between your top sets.

Also, seems like a ton of warm up sets, especially if the 2nd and 3rd exercises are related to the first. For example, if you flat bench, then incline, then decline, I wouldn’t do any more than one warm up set for incline and decline. I’d do one to get that feel of it, then get on with the work. If you’re working antagonistic muscles, such as first exercise was bench and second is rows, probably go 2 warm up sets for rows then start work sets. Reason being, that area still was working and getting blood in it from the first exercise. Regardless, there’s probably not a single exercise i would use 5 warm up sets on.

It’s your time, so your decision. Suggestion above for 5/3/1 couldnt be better, btw.