Biotest

New Supps and Insomnia?

Hi All,

HELP! I have been battling insomnia for about 3 weeks now after starting a regimen of supplements. I know you probably will want a lot more detail but my lifting and exercise program hasn’t changed with the exception that I am progressing in the gym weekly using a full body, compound lift program 3 days a week utilizing varied reps: Monday 11 x 3, Wednesday 7 x 3, Friday 4 x 3 (obviously the weight is adjusted for each day adding 5 lbs to each exercise weekly).

I have been lifting for years and know the difference between over-training, heavy lifting induced insomnia and impossible to SLEEP!

This started when I began using NEW supplements.

QUALIFIER. I have used Alpha Male, Flameout, ZMA, BCAA’s and melatonin regularily for years.

What’s new is Creatine Malate, Rev Z, Micro PA, Plazma, MAG-10, Curcumin.

Biotest Daily Supplements:

Alpha Male - 2 tablets twice a day
creatine malate - 10g (5g x 2 times a day 1 in the morning one after workout combined with MAG-10)
bcaa’s peptides
Micro PA 1 hour prior to workout
Plazma - durring workout
MAG-10 - 1 hour following workout
ZMA (Recommended dose)
Rev Z (Recommended dose)
Flameout (Recommended dose)
Circumin

Vitamin Shoppe Supplemments: ( also used for years without issues)

maca
Vitamin D3
melatonin - 3mg prior to bedtime
Arginine & ornithine 2000mg per day ( 1 - 1000mg -twice a day)

Anyone with an idea of which one is the likely culprit?

I am thinking of reducing creatine malate to 5g per day, but don’t want to do that if it is not the reason for insomnia and loose out on its benefits.

What time of day do you lift?

I knew someone would make it complicated. Same time for 10 years 3:30pm Thanks for your reply. I need to figure this out. It’s the supplements not my time of day.

I’ve actually had some trouble sleeping when I take ZMA shortly before bed. It’s relaxing but for some reason keeps me up. When do you take the ZMA?

[quote]saddyman wrote:
I know you probably will want a lot more detail
[…]
I knew someone would make it complicated.[/quote]
Okay, take a breath. The guy asked a simple and reasonable question.

You’ve already decided it’s gotta be the supplements, but it’s fair for us to ask for details about your training, your nutrition, even your general stress. Tons of factors when it comes to insomnia that pops up out of nowhere. Could be as simple as some form of mental stress you’re not consciously aware of.

You didn’t even give us a general daily timeline - when do you go to sleep, when do you wake up, when do you train (answered after minimal prodding), when and what is your last meal of the day, etc.

… in your opinion. The only recently added supplement that I’d say could be tied to general energy is the Micro-PA. Some people do report having more energy from it overall, and since it affects the mitochondria, it makes sense. But is that enough for you to still be feeling amped up hours and hours? Probably not, but maybe.

Not totally sure what this means. If you’re now doing more heavier/lower rep work than usual, you may be revving up your CNS, which could keep humming along for hours after.

For example, let’s say you train at 3:30 for an hour/hour and a half, your CNS could still be running on a high gear by 8 or 9 o’clock, so winding down may be a problem.

Taken at bedtime? Just clarifying.

Nothing you’re taking is a stimulant, so none of them should be the culprit. You won’t like the answer, but I think you need to double-check your nutrition and training to make sure it’s as dialed in as you say it’s been. Or, as I said, there’s a chance you’re hyper-sensitive to the effects of Micro-PA. But that’s a longshot.

Other option is the maca. Could be a bad batch you recently got, which is inducing side effects you hadn’t noticed before.

I’d suggest reducing to 5g per day only because there’s no simply no benefit to 10g everyday.

If I were you, I would drop all new supplements for a month and see if it goes away. If it goes away, I’d reintroduce each one and wait two weeks before bringing on another new supplement.

That being said, if you’re impatient I would bet that it’s either Rez-V or Micro-PA. If you want to expedite, I’d remove the Rez-V first, if that doesnt help within a month, try the Micro-PA next. If that fails, see step 1. If step 1 fails, it’s not your supps.

[quote]DavidMas wrote:
I’ve actually had some trouble sleeping when I take ZMA shortly before bed. It’s relaxing but for some reason keeps me up. When do you take the ZMA?[/quote]

I do take the ZMA 10 minutes before heading to bed. However, this is not new for me. I have been using Biotest ZMA for approx. 9 years. Good to know that there is a potential that ZMA could keep others awake too. I’ll keep this in mind. Thanks!

Thanks! I appreciate the short answer to supplements and stimulants. I am just happy to know there are no stimulants in any of the products causing my insomnia. I began the program ( Monday’s 11x3, Wednesday 7x3, Friday 4x3) 10 weeks ago. To be clear- an example: Monday 11’s x 3 = eleven reps, three sets. Duration of training excluding Yoga warm up is 60-70 minutes timed with 30 second rest between sets on Monday, 60-75 seconds on Wednesday, 60-90 second on Friday.

I add 5 lbs to each exercise each day of the week until the workout becomes or feels too hard to complete 'comfortably" and then I repeat that weight the following week. Driven personality and I have only had to repeat one workout at the same weight before adding more the next week.

I will be cycling into a 5 x 5 program beginning in 2 weeks.

Yesterday I reduced the Creatine Malate to 5g and will stick with that. The recommended dose was for 5-10g per day.

Bedtime is consistently 9:30 pm- 10:30 pm for years. Wake up at 5:45am.

Weight 156
BF 9-12%
Height 5’ 7"
Age 55

Meals and recipes are prescribed by online menu generator with adjustable Macro nutrients currently set at: Protein = 95 - 108 g ( this does not include Plazma, MAG-10, BCAA’s or occasional Metabolic Drive protein bar for cravings) meaning I am getting 1g of protein per lb body weight per day… Carbs = (73 - 84 g) + Fat = 75 - 85 g.

It is certainly possible that the progressively heavier loads have produced the insomnia, however, this would be a first. I generally have experience a touch of insomnia when dieting down to 7-10% BF.

It just seems to me that the introduction of the supplements regimen and the insomnia started at the same time or shortly afterwards… I’m tired and cranky and can’t recall…haha. evidenced by my reply to other gentleman.

Rev-V and Micro-PA are really the only new supplements that I have not used before and started to worry they were the issue. I can live without the Rev-Z, my thought was that it reduced estrogen and increased T. Last night was repeat of the past 20 nights and It is horrible to be laying wide awake in bed every night at 4:30am…

I read T Nation and John Berardi, PhD CSCS regularly and am not a newbie to nutrition, rest, workouts, 8-12 week cycles.

Any strategy for eliminating my insomnia without removing all supplements is welcomed. I finally talked myself into the financial commitment of a Micro-PA, Plazma, MAG-10 program.

10 minutes before bed at 9:30 pm - 10:30 pm.

Thanks! I appreciate the short answer to supplements and stimulants. I am just happy to know there are no stimulants in any of the products causing my insomnia. I began the program ( Monday’s 11x3, Wednesday 7x3, Friday 4x3) 10 weeks ago. To be clear- an example: Monday 11’s x 3 = eleven reps, three sets. Duration of training excluding Yoga warm up is 60-70 minutes timed with 30 second rest between sets on Monday, 60-75 seconds on Wednesday, 60-90 second on Friday.

ZMA taken at bedtime along with melatonin.

Mico-PA taken at 2:30pm

Alpha Male taken twice a day 1st dose in morning 5:50am - 6:10am with Greens Plus Superfood Organic Berry Drink, before breakfast 2nd dose after training with Mag-10. Both dosages taken with Rev-V, Circumin.

I add 5 lbs to each exercise each day of the week until the workout becomes or feels too hard to complete 'comfortably" and then I repeat that weight the following week. Driven personality and I have only had to repeat one workout at the same weight before adding more the next week.

I will be cycling into a 5 x 5 program beginning in 2 weeks.

Yesterday I reduced the Creatine Malate to 5g and will stick with that. The recommended dose was for 5-10g per day.

Bedtime is consistently 9:30 pm- 10:30 pm for years. Wake up at 5:45am.

Weight 156
BF 9-12%
Height 5’ 7"
Age 55

Meals and recipes are prescribed by online menu generator with adjustable Macro nutrients currently set at: Protein = 95 - 108 g ( this does not include Plazma, MAG-10, BCAA’s or occasional Metabolic Drive protein bar for cravings) meaning I am getting 1g of protein per lb body weight per day… Carbs = (73 - 84 g) + Fat = 75 - 85 g.

It is certainly possible that the progressively heavier loads have produced the insomnia, however, this would be a first. I generally have experience a touch of insomnia when dieting down to 7-10% BF.

It just seems to me that the introduction of the supplements regimen and the insomnia started at the same time or shortly afterwards… I’m tired and cranky and can’t recall…haha. evidenced by my reply to other gentleman.

Rev-V and Micro-PA are really the only new supplements that I have not used before and started to worry they were the issue. I can live without the Rev-Z, my thought was that it reduced estrogen and increased T. Last night was repeat of the past 20 nights and It is horrible to be laying wide awake in bed every night at 4:30am…

I read T Nation and John Berardi, PhD CSCS regularly and am not a newbie to nutrition, rest, workouts, 8-12 week cycles.

Any strategy for eliminating my insomnia without removing all supplements is welcomed. I finally talked myself into the financial commitment of a Micro-PA, Plazma, MAG-10 program.

I will eliminate the Rev-Z starting today. I hope that’s it since it is truly the only supplement I thought “what the heck, it reduces Estrogen and could increase T, who couldn’t use more T?..”

I wouldn’t take resveratrol too close to the workout time: Resveratrol blunts the positive effects of exercise training on cardiovascular health in aged men - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3810808/

I personally don’t take it at all anymore.

Massively up the volume of your accesory work maybe train an extra day as well -you probably need to train more to ‘soak up’ the extra recovery and work capacity that Plazma and MAG-10 have given you wether you feel it or not.

I have been or should say I was taking Rev-V in the morning along with Alpha Male at 6:00am on an empty stomach 30 minutes before Breakfast. My workout, as mentioned is at 3:30 pm.

I am glad you called it Resveratrol, because that is what it is. I have used Resveratrol in the past, not Rez-V although I think it is one in the same.

Here’s a little more info; 10 years ago when I had a short bout with insomnia it felt like my body was in high gear, almost like “clenching”. That was over-training induced. This is different. I am totally relaxed and my brain is not racing. I just can’t fall asleep! Last night was a repeat of every night in the past three weeks.

As I said last night was a repeat of the past 21 nights. Today I am eliminating Rez-V and Maca. I missed my Micro-PA dose and MAG-10 pulse yesterday (day-off), that’s a first in years where I missed a step in my current regimen… can’t help thinking it was Freudian. :wink:

If anyone else thinks or knows this is Micro-PA causing the issues I’d love to hear. Chris I see you are a contributor and I appreciate any further feedback.

This is crazy bad. I get to bed and certainly feel and think “oh great this is the night I am going to sleep” I am yawning and tired… 4- 6 hours later I am still trying to sleep.

My body is not amped up, my mind is not racing.

Leucine rich protein powders (Mag-10, Plazma) might lower your serotonin (and dopamine) levels by competetively inhibiting the uptake of tryptophan and tyrosine across the BBB. This could in turn affect sleep in susceptible individuals.

[quote]saddyman wrote:
I am glad you called it Resveratrol, because that is what it is. I have used Resveratrol in the past, not Rez-V although I think it is one in the same.[/quote]
It is, that’s what it says on the label. Rez-V is just resveratrol with an ingredient to improve absorption.

What did your training look like at the time? High volume or lots of heavy, low-rep work?

Your current calories, according to the macros you listed, are about 1350-1530 per day (plus a few hundred from workout nutrition only on training days). This, to me, would be the first thing to address.

Not sure I caught your current goal, but those are absolutely “dieting-level” calories. If you’ve previously experienced the same thing under similar nutritional conditions, then those are the dots I’d connect first, rather than looking into supplements which don’t cause insomnia in the overwhelming number of people who use them. Try adding a small-ish meal (a few hundred calories with protein, carbs, and a little fat) sometime before bed.

They say one of the worst things you can do for insomnia is to lay around waiting. Once you realize you’re not getting to sleep, try getting out of bed and reading something (a real book, not a Kindle or similar) or doing some easy, low intensity yoga stretches like your regular warm-up, and then getting back to into bed.

Tons of articles on the 'net about how to get to sleep, including several on this site.

[quote]junvewules wrote:
Leucine rich protein powders (Mag-10, Plazma) might lower your serotonin (and dopamine) levels by competetively inhibiting the uptake of tryptophan and tyrosine across the BBB. This could in turn affect sleep in susceptible individuals.[/quote]
Not sure that would still have an effect after 8+ hours and with several meals in between.

[quote]saddyman wrote:
I knew someone would make it complicated. Same time for 10 years 3:30pm Thanks for your reply. I need to figure this out. It’s the supplements not my time of day.[/quote]

Sorry I made it complicated, just asked because some of the supps taken later in the day may have been a factor.

Good Luck

My money is on the Micro PA causing insomnia. Please keep us posted on your results.

I stopped taking Micro PA once I was able to isolate it as the cause of two undesirable side effects for ME (mild insomnia and mild anxiety). I have no issues now as I stopped taking Micro PA.

Also, FWIW, I take Plazma and Mag-10 every day. I train twice a day and take Mag-10 late at night. I have had only positive effects from the two. No negative side effects whatsoever. Never any insomnia or anxiety.

[quote]RDeschain wrote:
My money is on the Micro PA causing insomnia. Please keep us posted on your results.

I stopped taking Micro PA once I was able to isolate it as the cause of two undesirable side effects for ME (mild insomnia and mild anxiety). I have no issues now as I stopped taking Micro PA.

Also, FWIW, I take Plazma and MAG-10 every day. I train twice a day and take MAG-10 late at night. I have had only positive effects from the two. No negative side effects whatsoever. Never any insomnia or anxiety.
[/quote]

Very Interesting. I eliminated Micro PA and Rev Z for 3 days and did not pulse MAG-10 - Saturday, Sunday, Monday - I also had no workouts over the Labor Day weekend.

Last night, I did fall asleep a little faster than since this began. I still tossed and turned for a couple of hours. I am also very aware of strategies for insomnia or difficulty falling asleep, including: getting up and reading, avoiding turning on any lights, eating a small snack or laying down on the couch to see if I can get drowsy.

I woke this morning thinking well it’s one of a few things: A.) The 3 days off helped, B.) it’s Micro PA, C.) It’s Rev Z ( highly unlikely since it’s only resveratrol) - D.) Combination of any of the above.

I was leaning towards the extra day off theory. I am somewhat glad and somewhat bummed someone else had an issue with Micro PA. I just made a 2 month investment in Micro PA.

As I have stated since the beginning, this all started around the exact time I began with the supplement regimen. I wasn’t willing to bet money on the supplement theory because I haven’t had any issues with Biotest products before.

I almost was going to take the Micro PA again before today’s workout, glutton for punishment I guess. I am conflicted. I have to tell you my strength, endurance and lean mass has increased noticeably since starting Micro PA. I might now skip th Micro PA for a week and see what happens. I will continue Plazma and MAG-10.

I guess this will be my plan and should have been from the beginning, I was in denial about the possibility of Micro PA being the culprit: I’m going to continue with the workout schedule and intensity, eliminate Micro PA and see what happens.

I certainly have appreciated all the support and the questions along with suggestions. Stay Tuned!