Biotest

Flatbread Frenzy


#101

Wolfman-

I couldn’t agree with you more. You hit the nail on the head. My point still stands as you just showed, you need A LOT of experience, self-discipline, the ability to be brutally self-critical/honest with yourself, and ultimately lots of documentation of what you have done to that point to get dramatic results. To paraphrase Dorian Yates “If you don’t know what and how much you are eating, how am I supposed to help you?”. Objective data (like a calorie log) allow you to tweak things when you stall.

If you are going for dramatic body comp goals I honestly don’t know how you would do it without data like this, at least in the early stages of the diet when you are establishing your meals. Once you start eating literally the exact same thing everyday for weeks on end can you consider dropping the log IMO. Of course then you almost keeping a de facto log anyway since you are not really free eating anyways. You basically just memorized your calorie log.

The biggest problem is the vast majority of people HAVE NOT attained the aforementioned qualities/experiences necessary to make instinctive eating and training work, regardless of the food choices. For these people they need to spend some time (and by time I mean years) studying labels, tracking calories, weights/reps each workout, etc. before they will build up the necessary knowledge base. This shit is hard and don’t let anyone tell you different. Once you have established a solid knowledge base and your desired leanness then you can start to chill out on the calorie counting. Chris and more experienced guys can get away with this because they have spent over a decade practicing this stuff. Hell it has become so second nature I don’t know if I could honestly stop myself from keeping a running log of calories in my head.

I started to get off track there, but long story short I agree with you, but as you pointed out in your post experience is essential to making instinctive eating work and most people are no where near ready for this. It is better to eat clean for a variety of reasons, but grass fed butter and coconut oil will still get you fat as hell if you eat too much and with items like that it is very easy to eat too much.


#102

[quote]Wolfman155 wrote:
What about an article section on this site with the first couple of articled outlining your VLife eating plan/strategies? Like Dr. Berardi’s 10 habits or something. A guide for those wishing to Live in the VLife. Maybe including an article or two about how to tweak and individualize the VLife for competitions (more volume in diet, easing off the almond flour, calorie counting, and macronutrient manipulation, etc)? Just some thoughts.

[/quote]

Yep, we’re planning an article section, and of course more detail in what this whole V-Life thing is. It’s all very “new” right now; it’s all coalescing as we speak. And it goes way beyond the V-Diet. Should be cool!


#103

Brick, I don’t have much to add to what kilpaba has already said. There is no disagreement with your essential point but understand that one of the main premises that we are trying to establish (and we’re leaving the calorie is a calorie debate alone), was that “free eating” requires a good deal of experience to pull off.

Of course it depends on your goals, but if you want to walk around with single digit bodyfat, which is not really that hard after you’ve gone through the process that kilpaba has described, you need to be intimately familiar with your baseline caloric needs/macronutrients/etc and eat within those bounds consistently, day/week/month/year in and out.

Like he said, people who do this have running logs in their heads so, for example, they know that if they need 2500 calories a day to maintain and they eat an almond flour pizza that has 1500 calories in it then they only have 1000 calories left for the rest of the day if they don’t want to put any fat. This is “free eating”.

Again, you can eat pretty much what ever you want as long as you abide by these rules (and hit your macronutrient ratios). I’m oversimplifying but I hope I articulated the point.

Once you have gotten where you want to go through the rigor, then you can adopt the tenets that Shugart is espousing and maintain without much problem.

I like to think of this stage as the reward for all the discipline, study, and plain old hard ass work that it takes to get down to low bodyfat levels with any amount of muscle to show for it. And Chris is right, it can be a lot of fun to experiment when you get there.


#104

This stuff has a great deal of good calories, is a bulk really excess calories or replacing good calories with some bad grains for a temporary time. I question this now.


#105

[quote]kilpaba wrote:
This is my last post I promise, but I wanted to address ADvanced’s question as to my point, so here it is:

Chris clearly seems to understand that calories are the ultimate arbiter on weight loss that much is obvious from some of his responses. I don’t doubt HIS knowledge on the subject. The concern is whether the people reading his posts do.

I cannot think of a single physique conscious athlete that would recommend eating a lot of nuts ESPECIALLY without weighing/counting the calories. A serving or two on a maintenance diet? Sure. But do you realize how little food that is? Nuts (raw or cooked) are probably one of the easiest foods I can think of to over eat. They are just ridiculously calorie dense. 500 calories of ezekiel bread (6 slices or nearly 1/2 a loaf) would be way more satiating than 500 calories of nuts would be (a hearty fist full), at least from my experience. And since there really is no scientific evidence to avoid eating carbs for weight/fat loss why the hell would you choose insanely calorie dense almond flour over even regular flour? Volumetrically the standard flour will have much fewer calories for the same mass of food. Even assuming you were more satiated from the nuts, given the density of the calories I highly doubt this would compensate for the drastically increased calories.

It is confusing for beginners and obscures the reality that calories are hands down the most important factor when Chris or Paleo or whomever folks say things like “eat as much as you want just leave out those devil (insert flavor of the month evil food/macro here) and you won’t gain any fat. Forget counting calories!” Several folks who have posted in this thread showing trepidation about adding so many calories to their diet were simply told “its clean don’t sweat it” which is total BS if they are looking for SERIOUS body comp changes.

Yes if you want to look like an average guy for the rest of your life with average body fat and a standard unimpressive physique then just cut out the “dirty/evil” foods and you can maintain. But isn’t the point of the V-Diet and coming to this site at all that you want DRAMATIC body comp results? Telling people not to worry about calorie counting is simply going to lead folks to mediocrity (yes I know Chris has said it is helpful for beginners, but not “experienced” folks. Problem is it is important even for “experienced” folks. Go read some posts on Dave Tate’s site. He counts his calories too when he is serious.).

Chris is knowledgeable and experienced enough to perhaps not need these tools (even he might if he wanted to seriously compete though), but the average guy on the V-Diet thread is not. I have been lifting, dieting and training my ass off for over 12 years, can rattle off nutrition fact labels for most foods, and I still count my calories during a diet and serious bulk. Why would a guy with a year or two in the gym not need to do this if he wants serious results?

Sorry for the rant, but it sounds like a lot of folks here really want to make some serious changes to their lives and I really feel like some of the stuff they are being told will harm them more than help them. [/quote]

Kilpaba,

Thank you and your brother for your insight into this subject. I agree with you that calories counting or calories estimating is still very important on a daily basis and eating half of flatbread pizza on a consistent basis could produce serious problems with body fat control unless the person has a high daily caloric maintenance level to begin with. However, I don’t agree with you that avoid eating carbs do not contribute to fat loss. There have been numerous competitive bodybuilders that have used carb cycling to cut while keeping at maintenance daily caloric count. Shelby Starnes’s plan strictly uses carb cycling to perform fat loss for average joes and professional athletes. I guess this is why this fat loss/muscle preservation goal is so complicated and requires years of knowledge and experience to get it right. Thanks again for your input.


#106

Last night I made the Flatbread pizza and it was delicious! I used Classico pasta sauce as the base and added non fat mozzarella cheese, sliced tomato, diced red pepper and turkey pepperoni. I’ll probably make this again later in the week but change the toppings. Maybe try Mexican pizza next time.


#107

Tomkade:

With regards to not eating carbs to lose fat and the methods of various coaches. Very briefly let’s look at how macronutrients are utilized. Upon ingestion a macronutrient will encounter one of two fates, either it is oxidized to meet fuel demands or it is stored for later use. Protein is a bit of a special case and is a bit too complicated to really get into here so if you’re interested we can tackle that later. Carbs are the bodies preferred fuel source (i.e. glucose) and will preferentially be oxidized to meet energy demands. Once these demands are met, excess carbs are stored in the liver and/or muscle as glycogen.

The fact that people like to claim that carbs are “unnecessary” simply because they do not compose the structural components of cells is a bit short-sighted and simplistic given the overwhelming efficiency of carb utilization for fuel. It is rather obvious what the body would prefer regardless of whether it is absolutely “necessary”. But I digress. Carbs will not be converted to fat under most circumstances as the enzymatic pathways are terribly inefficient in humans. You can overcome this at high intakes however (i.e. >600g per day for a 70kg man) Now, the utilization of carbs as energy will “spare” the other two macronutrients the fate of oxidation. I’ll come back to this in a moment to tie it all together.

Fat, on the other hand, is very easily stored via direct mechanisms and will only be used for fuel if absolutely necessary. Insulin is NOT required for this to occur. You can see that if you eat a bunch of carbs AND fat that what will happen is that the carbs will be used to meet energy requirements and the fat will be left free to be stored with almost 100% efficiency. Now if you cut carbs you will necessarily lower calorie intake to the point that energy demands are not met with carbs alone and fat must be used to make up the difference. No magic here. You could just as easily lower fat to decrease calories below maintenance and even though carbs are being used for energy stored bodyfat will still be used to make up the difference (it has to come from somewhere, remember thermodynamics).

So I hope you can see that just by dropping out carbs (which will make the body use fat as fuel) but eating all the fat you want will not magically cause greater fat loss than a low fat diet could. Now are there benefits to low carbing it? In certain respects yes. Insulin does halt lipolysis. Now in the face of a hypocaloric diet this is not that significant but if you were going for fat loss at all cost (i.e. the last lb of bodyfat before getting on stage) then a low or no carb diet might help you do that by blunting insulin as far as is possible. So that sounds pretty good right? Well yes, but remember that biology is a zero sum game and gaining an advantage in one area leads to a loss in another. Insulin is anticatabolic to muscle (again mechs are too long to go into) and glycogen is also muscle sparing via several pathways. So cutting carbs makes retaining muscle a very hard thing to do during a diet (this has been born out in practice for decades in the natural lifter).

Try gaining muscle on a low carb diet vs a moderate carb diet and see for yourself how significant the difference is. The same tricks that build muscle are the same that preserve muscle. This is why so many bodybuilders using a low carb diet for the duration of their prep find holding muscle so difficult.

Again, there are million roads to Rome, albeit that some may be a little straighter. Shelby, Hight, and plenty of others use carb cycling in their plans (and hopefully with the primer above you can see that it could serve as a stop gap during either a cut or bulk (2 steps forward, 1 step back)) and it would work perfectly well if calories were below maintenance. However, there are plenty of examples of coaches who do not do this and get natural (this is KEY) athletes in ridiculous condition using moderate carbs and lower fat approaches i.e. Norton, Thibs (see the Daryl Gee project for more), Jeff Willet, Skip La Cour, etc. There are examples of guys using no carbs too but I think you can see the big picture. It all works.

Once the energy intake has been addressed (calories are below maintenance) then the rest is minutia and doesn’t become important until you are getting advanced enough to get on stage. I hope this is coherent enough to follow. I have so much more to say on the subject that I could probably write all night to clarify and elaborate on some of this but this is already stupid long. Bottom line…

Pick your poison. You can find examples in all camps so using the argument from authority is a failing proposition.

Otherwise you are right on track.


#108

There isn’t much to add to what my brother already wrote, but I would also point out that guys like Shelby and Layne Norton recommend eating things like oats (grains AND carbs in a diet) and when they cycle carbs they are often eating 100+g of carbs a day which is not exactly what most consider low carb.

I would recommend reading a good bit of Lyle McDonald’s work regarding fat loss. When it comes to straight science he is hard to beat in terms of learning how the body reacts and uses various macro-nutrients. Not to say that science has answered all questions of nutrition adequately (it certainly hasn’t if it ever can), but no sense in ignoring the very good data that is out there.

Final thought on carbs in a diet. Carbs are indeed “unnecessary” in order to sustain life which makes them the most obvious thing to drop out first. I order macros in the following hierarchy when dieting 1)Protein (1-1.5g/lb.) 2)Fat (~35% of total calories for hormone maintenance) and 3)Carbs (remainder of allotted calories).

If I need to drop calories I drop carbs first as they are the least necessary to the body. This is not because of some inherent evil of carbs, but rather calories have to get dropped somewhere and you need a certain amount of fat to maintain good hormone levels (but honestly probably NEVER above 60-100g. no matter what your calorie needs are).

Tyson is correct though that biology is a zero sum game and carbs serve very important functions for the body (best fuel source for the brain and muscle sparing). Dropping carbs does indeed have negative effects. This is where the carb cycling comes in to try and get the most out of the lower carb world while still maintaining some of the benefits of the higher carb world. It is a moderate approach that often relies on very extensive dieting timelines (17-23 weeks) in order to get truly shredded. The upside is it helps preserve muscle better which is important for physique athletes.

Bottom line there is no good or bad macro or good or bad diet. Each has its own set of pros and cons (there is no such thing as a utopia in dieting or politics!) and you simply need to take a look at what your goals are to determine which approach will work best for you and your situation.


#109

[quote]kilpaba wrote:
Bottom line there is no good or bad macro or good or bad diet. Each has its own set of pros and cons (there is no such thing as a utopia in dieting or politics!) and you simply need to take a look at what your goals are to determine which approach will work best for you and your situation.
[/quote]

Very well said. I agree 100% that there is not a good or bad macro. I think that we have to be very careful in the classification of things as bad or good. This is why my eating strategy follows more closely with Precision Nutrition type of plan. There is not a bad food (whole and real foods), just times that are better to eat certain foods. Yes, I meaan grains as well! We each have to find out what works best for us and what our tolerances are. I don’t believe that vilifying real foods, even grains, is a step in the right direction. Nice post kilpaba!


#110

SO I just tried this recipe for the first time and let me say wow! I made it as a 'cheat" meal to eat while watchign football yesterday, and my wife and I both loved it. I made it on our pizza stone, so it got nice and crispy, then added onions, mushrooms and a little bit of turkey pepperoni. Fantastic!

Next time I do this I’m going to make it a white pizza with grilled chicken, broccoli, and roasted red peppers.


#111

[quote]Chris Shugart wrote:
Wow, you guys are still arguing about calories instead of eating awesome flatbread? That’s just crazy. :wink:

Reminds me of the old riddle: what weighs more, a pound of rocks or a pound of feathers? The answer is of course that they weigh the same. The question becomes, which one do you want dropped on your head? Suddenly, a “pound is not a pound.”

I see the calorie argument as the same. Break it all down dietician-textbook-style and a calorie is a calorie. But 300 cals of one food source (say, Hershey bars) is going to have a very different impact on the body than 300 calories of something else (say, a protein shake.) That’s all we’re saying here.

300 calories may be 300 calories, but I’ll take 300 cals of casein, omega-3s, and veggies over 300 cals HFCS, transfat and flour any day. And the funny thing is, all those saying “a calorie is a calorie” would too.

Two good articles here that need reposted. Both from Dr. Berardi:

[/quote]

i thought according to physics they will hurt the same because both fall at a rate of 10 m/s.


#112

I LOVE this! Made it last night & it is incredible!!


#113

I made this pizza crust twice already, both times it was awesome!

I have 1 question though - I find the almond flavor a bit dominating. Any tips to deal with this?


#114

[quote]kluebirby wrote:
I made this pizza crust twice already, both times it was awesome!

I have 1 question though - I find the almond flavor a bit dominating. Any tips to deal with this?[/quote]

Odd, I’ve never really tasted almonds using almond flour. Are you using blanched (skins off)? It may taste stronger unblanched.

Anyway, best trick is to add plenty of dried herbs to the crust. I like lots of oregano since nothing says pizza like oregano.


#115

It was my first recipe from here and it ended great, made just a slight change in the cheese, used emmental, because it was the only low fat shredded cheese I found.
Ate it crunchy with nothing on it, except garlic and oreganos, just like little toasted seasoned bread crumbs.

Great. :smiley:


#116

[quote]Dutchman.Pt wrote:
It was my first recipe from here and it ended great, made just a slight change in the cheese, used emmental, because it was the only low fat shredded cheese I found.
Ate it crunchy with nothing on it, except garlic and oreganos, just like little toasted seasoned bread crumbs.

Great. :D[/quote]

Dutch, now i understand where you are seeing the recipe han? This is why i can not found more almond flour… I bought it all! :smiley:


#117

[quote]Sik wrote:

[quote]Dutchman.Pt wrote:
It was my first recipe from here and it ended great, made just a slight change in the cheese, used emmental, because it was the only low fat shredded cheese I found.
Ate it crunchy with nothing on it, except garlic and oreganos, just like little toasted seasoned bread crumbs.

Great. :D[/quote]

Dutch, now i understand where you are seeing the recipe han? This is why i can not found more almond flour… I bought it all! :D[/quote]
Welcome buddy! :smiley:


#118

A buddy of mine told me to check out this site because he knows I love trying healthy recipes. SO glad he told me about it. I’ve made quite a few over the last couple of weeks so I decided to join. The wife and I are gonna make a pizza with this flat bread recipe tonight!


#119

[quote]scm999 wrote:
A buddy of mine told me to check out this site because he knows I love trying healthy recipes. SO glad he told me about it. I’ve made quite a few over the last couple of weeks so I decided to join. The wife and I are gonna make a pizza with this flat bread recipe tonight![/quote]

Awesome. Keep us posted on how it turns out!


#120

It came out great! I think its actually the best pizza I’ve personally made at home. Usually the crust on homemade pizza is pretty soft and flimsy and can’t really handle the sauce and toppings but this one held up great and I loaded it up. I’m not gonna say it tasted exactly like a top notch take out pizza but it was definitely better than your average take out pizza and I felt great after eating it. Toppings are mozz and parm cheese, diced tomato, mushroom, onion, and bell pepper. Forgot to put black olive on.

I hope the picture works.