Biotest

Dr Stout Q & A


#1

Question: I guess I just still don’t understand where PA comes in. Isn’t the lifting and Plazma, Mag-10 (etc) consumption activating hypertrophy? When I read the article, it almost seemed like it was saying you could take Micro-PA, and do nothing else, and hypertrophy would be activated. Surely that’s not the case. Maybe I missed something, but I’m otherwise I’m confused.

Resistance training increases PA “within” skeletal muscle or within the intracellular environment. This occurs via activating an enzyme (phospholipase D) which lies within components of muscle that are sensitive to eccentric contractions. These components are called zlines and hold the contractile elements of a muscle fiber together. When stretched phospholipase D, which is bound to the zlines, senses mechanical trauma and reacts by producing phosphatidic acid or PA. PA then binds to and activates mTOR, the master switch regulating protein synthesis.

It turns out, however, that PA can also activate mTOR in a totally different pathway if delivered in the extracellular (outside the cell) environment (Winter et al). More specifically, extracellular PA triggers the ERK signaling pathway, which then activates mTOR via a completely separate mechanism than intracellular PA.

In fact, if you block ERK signaling when giving cells PA, protein synthesis does not increase. In contrast, if you block ERK signaling after resistance training protein synthesis still increases. For this reason you will maximize muscle growth if PA is increased both inside and outside the cell.

This explains why two studies to date have shown that resistance training combined with PA supplementation resulted in more lean body mass and hypertrophy than resistance training alone (Hoffman et al. 2012 and Joy et al. 2013).

Jeffrey Stout, PhD


#2

Dr. Stout, I have a couple of questions:

  1. Are there any dietary strategies for increasing intracellular PA?
  2. Do PA levels decline with age (I’m assuming so). I’m particularly interested in this aspect, as I’m 52 years old and have been training for 30 years.
  3. How effective would you expect Micro-PA to be at maintaining LBM during periods of hypo-caloric intake?

Thanks so much,

Crowbar


#3

Dr. Stout: so it looks like combining PA with training yields good results. But I’m interested in potentially using PA at a time far away from my training. My hypothesis is that you generate plenty of PA already from adequate hard bodybuilding type training, so another “pulse” of PA at another time far removed from your training time will provide a second opportunity to stimulate mTOR if combined with adequate nutrition (i.e. plenty of leucine).

Am I off base with this thinking? Does Biotest’s 6 capsule dosage mimic a certain level of training induced PA to justify this thinking?

If the answer is yes, then the best option might be 2 doses of mPA a day…one intake 6 hours removed from training (and accompanied by plenty of nutrition to provide the substrate necessary for growth), and one prior to training to get that PA amplification.

Am I wrong?


#4

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
Dr. Stout: so it looks like combining PA with training yields good results. But I’m interested in potentially using PA at a time far away from my training. My hypothesis is that you generate plenty of PA already from adequate hard bodybuilding type training, so another “pulse” of PA at another time far removed from your training time will provide a second opportunity to stimulate mTOR if combined with adequate nutrition (i.e. plenty of leucine).

Am I off base with this thinking? Does Biotest’s 6 capsule dosage mimic a certain level of training induced PA to justify this thinking?

If the answer is yes, then the best option might be 2 doses of mPA a day…one intake 6 hours removed from training (and accompanied by plenty of nutrition to provide the substrate necessary for growth), and one prior to training to get that PA amplification.

Am I wrong?[/quote]

Obviously I’m only the training guy. But I noticed that on my days off, when I take Micro-PA prior to a big meal I get a similar feeling “muscle fullness-wise” 90-120 minutes after the meal as I do 90-120 minutes after a training session.

A large caloric intake is also associated with mTor activation so I theorized that Micro-PA would help there too.

I’d be interested in the Doc’s view on this as well.


#5

Just as a side note, I’ve been taking Micro-PA, then 1 hr. Later consuming a 3 scoop serving of MAG-10, then 2 hrs. after the MAG-10 I have a large solid meal. This is in keeping with the double peak in blood levels (at 1 and 3 hrs. post consumption) for Micro-PA.

Crowbar


#6

I haven’t seen anything on the site about when to take Finibars with Micro-PA – Is there any chance of interference taken together?


#7

[quote]JGrace55 wrote:
I haven’t seen anything on the site about when to take Finibars with Micro-PA – Is there any chance of interference taken together?[/quote]

You can take both together with no interference, that’s one of the many benefits you can easily fit it into your schedule without worry.


#8

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
Dr. Stout: so it looks like combining PA with training yields good results. But I’m interested in potentially using PA at a time far away from my training. My hypothesis is that you generate plenty of PA already from adequate hard bodybuilding type training, so another “pulse” of PA at another time far removed from your training time will provide a second opportunity to stimulate mTOR if combined with adequate nutrition (i.e. plenty of leucine).

Am I off base with this thinking? Does Biotest’s 6 capsule dosage mimic a certain level of training induced PA to justify this thinking?

If the answer is yes, then the best option might be 2 doses of mPA a day…one intake 6 hours removed from training (and accompanied by plenty of nutrition to provide the substrate necessary for growth), and one prior to training to get that PA amplification.

Am I wrong?[/quote]

Obviously I’m only the training guy. But I noticed that on my days off, when I take Micro-PA prior to a big meal I get a similar feeling “muscle fullness-wise” 90-120 minutes after the meal as I do 90-120 minutes after a training session.

A large caloric intake is also associated with mTor activation so I theorized that Micro-PA would help there too.

I’d be interested in the Doc’s view on this as well.[/quote]

That is awesome feedback CT. Are you using 6 caps per the label or more like what Mr. Meadows had been using? Just a question.

Still WAY too early for me to tell anything yet. For the 1st couple months here, I’m sticking with the label instructions. Afterwards, I might try a twice a day intake (on training days only) to assess if there are any effects on me.


#9

Is this by any chance Jeffrey Stout from the University of Central Florida?


#10

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
Dr. Stout: so it looks like combining PA with training yields good results. But I’m interested in potentially using PA at a time far away from my training. My hypothesis is that you generate plenty of PA already from adequate hard bodybuilding type training, so another “pulse” of PA at another time far removed from your training time will provide a second opportunity to stimulate mTOR if combined with adequate nutrition (i.e. plenty of leucine).

Am I off base with this thinking? Does Biotest’s 6 capsule dosage mimic a certain level of training induced PA to justify this thinking?

If the answer is yes, then the best option might be 2 doses of mPA a day…one intake 6 hours removed from training (and accompanied by plenty of nutrition to provide the substrate necessary for growth), and one prior to training to get that PA amplification.

Am I wrong?[/quote]

Obviously I’m only the training guy. But I noticed that on my days off, when I take Micro-PA prior to a big meal I get a similar feeling “muscle fullness-wise” 90-120 minutes after the meal as I do 90-120 minutes after a training session.

A large caloric intake is also associated with mTor activation so I theorized that Micro-PA would help there too.

I’d be interested in the Doc’s view on this as well.[/quote]

That is awesome feedback CT. Are you using 6 caps per the label or more like what Mr. Meadows had been using? Just a question.

Still WAY too early for me to tell anything yet. For the 1st couple months here, I’m sticking with the label instructions. Afterwards, I might try a twice a day intake (on training days only) to assess if there are any effects on me. [/quote]

I’m only taking 6 capsules per intake, but I’ve tried 2 daily intakes of 6 capsules and it seemed to have a more pronounced effect but it’s too early to tell how big the difference will be.


#11

Thanks for that feedback CT.
It’s something I’ve suspected (and something I was going to find out for myself anyways), but your experience greatly strengthens the thought.


#12

My question is why is the dose so much higher than those used in the wilson and other studies, only 750mg there vs 4800mg. I may have missed it but I could not see a recommendation for dose per lean kg of bodyweight. Or does the BT product have less bioavailability for example? I’m 108kg at 8-10% bodyfat any recommendations re dose / recommended does per lean kg? Thank you


#13

Nixon2000, read the label again: the formula is 4800mg. total, yielding 750mg. PA.

By the way, where is Dr. Stout?

Crowbar


#14

[quote]nixon2000 wrote:
My question is why is the dose so much higher than those used in the wilson and other studies, only 750mg there vs 4800mg. I may have missed it but I could not see a recommendation for dose per lean kg of bodyweight. Or does the BT product have less bioavailability for example? I’m 108kg at 8-10% bodyfat any recommendations re dose / recommended does per lean kg? Thank you[/quote]

If you read the label on the bottle it states 750mg of active ingredient, same as Wilson et al. The rest is a micro emulsion delivery system using a cyclic dextrin variety I believe.


#15

[quote]crowbar46 wrote:
Dr. Stout, I have a couple of questions:

  1. Are there any dietary strategies for increasing intracellular PA?
  2. Do PA levels decline with age (I’m assuming so). I’m particularly interested in this aspect, as I’m 52 years old and have been training for 30 years.
  3. How effective would you expect Micro-PA to be at maintaining LBM during periods of hypo-caloric intake?

Thanks so much,

Crowbar[/quote]
Are there any dietary strategies for increasing intracellular PA?

Answer: Yes, I would recommend supplement Micro-PA. LOL! No, but seriously, from a diet perspective, foods like cabbage, tomatoes, peas, corn, and other vegetables have a measurable amount of PA. However, many of them are significantly diminished in PA concentration if you cook them (i.e. boiled), so you must consume them raw. In addition,to get 50mg of PA you would need to consume 90grams of cabbage, for 60mg of PA you need to consume 300grams of cucumbers and… Well I think you get the picture. Supplementing Mirco-PA would be much simpler and efficient.

Tanaka, et al. Quantification of phosphatidic acid in foodstuffs using a thin-layer-chromatography-imaging technique. Journal of agricultural and food chemistry, 60(16), 4156-4161.

Do PA levels decline with age (I’m assuming so). I’m particularly interested in this aspect, as I’m 52 years old and have been training for 30 years.

Answer: Actually sounds like you and I are close in age and have similar interest when it comes to muscle growth and aging. There is no research on your question, but there is a condition called anabolic resistance. In short, it’s harder for us older guys to build muscle like we use to when we were in our 20s and 30s. It takes more protein, higher amounts of leucine to activate mTOR, so I bet that adding PA to your diet would help overcome any potential anabolic resistance and augment muscle hypertrophy to a greater degree than nutrition and exercise alone. I would really like to see that study done, but I bet since it works because we have shown that supplementing PA in young strength and power athletes build more muscle than training alone.

How effective would you expect Micro-PA to be at maintaining LBM during periods of hypo-caloric intake?

Answer: this is another great question. I think under those conditions, PA would assist (along with resistance training) at maintaining muscle during hypo-caloric intake. PA augments the anabolic response of resistance training and as long as your anabolic response is greater than your catabolic response then preservation of muscle will take place.


#16

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
Dr. Stout: so it looks like combining PA with training yields good results. But I’m interested in potentially using PA at a time far away from my training. My hypothesis is that you generate plenty of PA already from adequate hard bodybuilding type training, so another “pulse” of PA at another time far removed from your training time will provide a second opportunity to stimulate mTOR if combined with adequate nutrition (i.e. plenty of leucine).

Am I off base with this thinking? Does Biotest’s 6 capsule dosage mimic a certain level of training induced PA to justify this thinking?

If the answer is yes, then the best option might be 2 doses of mPA a day…one intake 6 hours removed from training (and accompanied by plenty of nutrition to provide the substrate necessary for growth), and one prior to training to get that PA amplification.

Am I wrong?[/quote]

Answer: Pulse, what a great concept. I am going to agree and disagree with you my friend. First, I agree that IF the training stimulus is sufficient to tear some of those Z-membranes and activate the enzyme responsible for producing PA, then you will, and I am sure you do, produce a lot of internal PA.

But what if I told you that supplementing PA augments the activation of mTOR via another pathway. It’s called the ERK pathway way and what happens is the extracellular PA binds to a membrane receptor that initiates a cascade of events and eventually activates mTOR. Probably why, to date all of the human studies have shown an enhanced muscle gain with PA+training compared to the very brutal and intense Z-membrane destroying workout only.

This is interesting because based on recent data, and some yet to be published; PA activates the mTOR by intracellular and extracellular means. I don’t know of any nutrient that has that anabolic potential of multiple potential to activate mTOR.

Also, supplemented PA stays in your system for 7 hours, so no need to take PA at a time apart from your training. However, I think if you wanted to maximize the effect, then I agree with you and suggest taking a second dose.


#17

Dr Stout, I think it is frickin’ awesome that you are answering the questions with such detail and the added bonus of more science! Thanks, really.

My plan: use Micro-PA before training (and Micro-PA prior to my pulse feast meal at night on off training days (which is now only twice a week)) for about 3 months. The next 3 months I’ll pulse Micro-PA twice a day, each pulse separated by 6 hours as I indicated. Your answers have really made me intensely curious on how this could work.

1st Indigo-3G, now Micro-PA. I cannot imagine what you guys have next in store for us.


#18

Dr. Stout, I’m curious about Micro-PA and what its effects on cardiac (good) and ventricular (bad) hypertrophy may be. Briefly reading some abstracts as a layman I found that mTOR may be cardioprotective when blood pressure is high, and that PA could promote cardiac hypertrophy.


#19

Do you know the conversion rate of phosphatidylcholine to phosphatidic acid? Is Alpha-GPC converted to phosphatidic acid? Is there a difference in taking Alpha-GPC as opposed to PA? What do you think the results would be if one took both PA and Alpha-GPC? I would appreciate your response as my goal is to build and maximize strength so any supplements that I can take to accomplish this along with brutal lifting and a proper diet is very helpful.

According to studies put out by the same company introducing PA and Alpha-GPC both supplements increase strength. So, it would be nice if you could elucidate on the above topics.


#20

I saw in another thread where you mentioned HMB might stimulate mTOR as well. Would there be any synergistic effects of combining this with PA?