Biotest

Bread is Resurrected?

Chris, or anyone else for that matter, I have been thinking a lot about grains/diet/anti-nutrients due to reading Marks Daily Apple, Primal Blueprint, Rob Wolffâ??s article, Precision Nutrition website, and various paleo diet books/sites. I have come up with my own position (I think) on the matter and would like to know what you think.

First, I am not a believer in evolution, but instead believe that man was created by God. One can also argue old Earth vs. new Earth theories. I think that a personâ??s belief on that matter is a personal one, but besides that, evolution is theoretical and could be wrong. It can be easy to use other theories to support oneâ??s own beliefs. Keeping an open mind goes both ways.

Second, from a dietary perspective I think that the paleo diets get it right. I just think that the additional reasoning, i.e. evolutionary biology, is faulty. It is all about inflammation, and an over consumption of grains leads to hyperinsulemia and inflammation. Add processed grains and foods made from these to the equation, and things get exponentially worse. I guess if you want to give a scientific/genetic perspective as to why this is, maybe evolution is a good fit?

But I donâ??t understand why you even have to go this far? Over consumption of grains = increased inflammation = health problems. Simple. I think that this could also lead to the same 90â??s mentality that we had with dietary fat, and the vilification of grains. Personally I have come to the decision that grains are not evil, can be a part of a healthy/inflammation controlled diet, but need to be put in their proper place.

Obviously, this would not be the case for those who have a specific disease or intolerance to grains. I think that it would be good for most people to start with a strict paleo diet for a few weeks or month, and then gradually reintroduce whole grains into their diets to see how they respond/feel, if they desire. They may find, like I have, that I feel better and have less pain, when the strictly limit grains from their diet. I like Dr. Berardiâ??s thoughts (Precision Nutrition) on grains in the diet. Very limited, whole natural grains, and only for a short time after you earn them (following exercise) or maybe rarely at breakfast.

Third, I think that the lectin and anti-nutrient content in grains and legumes as bothered me the most. It was these statements from the paleo diets that made me really examine my position on grains. These anti-nutrients are found in all foods, even meats, but some are classified as healthy, neutral, or harmful. From what I read lectins in meat do not seem to be harmful, but those in grains/legumes can be toxic.

When I first read about some of these anti-nutrients even I was a little fearful of eating grains due to the potentially harmful substances that would cause me to have a leaky gut and make me ill. I think that is like everything else, try to limit the amounts of these (moderation), avoid them if they cause you specific problems. Heck, just a thought, but what it small amounts of these harmful lectins in our diets help to keep our immune system primed in some way? I can also see how the American diet with a continual over emphasis on grains could lead to intolerances and auto-immune problems due to too many of these anti-nutrients in our system. Much like how over consumption of milk very a period of time can cause someone to develop lactose intolerance. The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle, and maybe we are not looking at lectins/anti-nutrients with the right perspective. I am not going to sweat a few of these nutrients in my diet from now on.

Agree/Disagree? My personal belief about God and creation gives perspective as to why I disagree with some of the premises of the paleo diets, and I hope that this does not prove to be a remark that leads to arguments in the nature of evolution vs. creation. I use it as perspective in regards to what got me considering these subjects. Besides I donâ??t think that it even needs to go there when you examine the underlying cause of why grains are bad, specifically inflammation and dietary displacement.

“They may find, like I have, that I feel better and have less pain, when the strictly limit grains from their diet.”

That was a poorly worded sentence. They may find, like I have, that they would feel better, have less inflammation and have less pain if the strictly limit grains in their diet.

“First, I am not a believer in evolution”

stopped there. doesn’t matter what you believe. you are entitled to your own set of opinions but not your own set of facts.

[quote]cstephens16 wrote:
“First, I am not a believer in evolution”

stopped there. doesn’t matter what you believe. you are entitled to your own set of opinions but not your own set of facts.[/quote]

I can see that open mindedness is a one way street in your life. If you would read on I say that I only mention this to give perspective to my questions. That was only a very small part of what I had to say, and you can totally seperate it from my other thoughts. These are the type of responses that I want to avoid. I ask you to read on and see what you think of the rest. Any yeah, I did use a subject heading to peak interest. I am in complete agreeance that bread is dead.

Why even bring this up? Well I am trying to work out in my mind my own VLIfE diet. Would I include grains and legumes in my diet? If I restrict them, for what reason? If I consumed a grain or legume would I have to consider this a cheat meal, and would I feel guilty for doing this? I have decided that occasionally consuming grains or legumes is not going to be a big deal for me.

I am not going to sweat a samll amount of steel cut oats post-work out or the occasional quinoa. I will continue to add black beans to my chicken fajita mix. I am not trying to be controversial or trying to get anyone to jump on my bandwagon, but instead I am using this as an example of how I have worked out what my diet will be like. My pursuit is a diet for health/longevity and apperance/performance.

The funny thing is I have come back full circle back to Precision Nutrition style eating, and don’t consider a STRICT paleo diet something that I want to do or think it is neccessary for me. I don’t think that Mark Sisson asks for strict addherence if one choses not to, but I wonder if Mark or any of the other paleo diet authors consider the emotional consequences of some of their plans?

Sounds kind of sappy, but I thinkt that this is why I originally started to think about this. I was struggling with eating certain foods and thinking them in the good/bad view. There might have been some guilt after eating some of these things. I think that it comes back to there are no bad foods, just times that are better to eat certain foods. Maybe there is a quantity aspect of this as well? I think that everyone has to work this out for themselves based on beliefs, intolerances, and life situation.

I do think that a paleo style diet is really good as a beginning spot to see what your tolerance/intolerance for grains. Following a length of time you could begin adding back grains and see how you react. Maybe this would answer the quantity issue? I like to question everything. This is the answer that I have come up in regards to my diet as of now. I might change my mind in the future, but I am open to this.

Wolf, the truth is that I don’t care too much about the “anti-nutrient” stuff. Tons of reasons to avoid bread besides that.

It sounds kinda like you’ve come to the conclusion that, while you agree that bread is bad for you, especially for those who want to get or stay lean, that if you consume a small enough amount it’s okay. I wrote an old article about this called “Shit is Shit.” Basically, it doesn’t matter if it’s a tiny amount of bad stuff; it’s still bad stuff and doing nothing for you.

I realize Jesus passed out a lot of bread. But I bet Adam and Eve weren’t refining wheat flour. :wink:

In short for long term health and better body right now, it’s best to break the bread addiction. And with almond flour recipes available on this site that allow you to make “bread” without any of the stuff that makes bread bad, then why stay hooked on the diabetes/love-handle drug?

PS: And i’ve written many times that the “no beans, no peas” Paleo types have taken the idea way too far.

Chris,

Maybe our thoughts differ less than 1% on this subject, and I don’t want you to think that we are looking at this from very different points of view. I still have some questions on this subject, and I appreciate you bearing with me on this question. I hope that I am not coming off as disrespectful. I just feel that I am missing something.

Can you further clarify your position on the use, or tactical use, of carbs from whole grain sources from grains? I am talking about steel cut oats, wild rice, quinoa, millet, and barley (whole natural grains) and not actual loaf bread from Wal-Mart. What about consuming the better-bad grains used for the distinct purpose of elevating insulin levels during the post-workout window? In your opinion, is there, or could there be a place for these carbs? Would using carbs from grains in this way, following intense workouts be hurtful to health or performance? Would you say that a measured amount of carbs from grains used in this way be a hindrance to fat loss?

I guess to some degree I was just wondering what the position statement on carbs from grains in VLIFE is? Is it, it just depends or a nearly never? Why does it seem that I am focusing on the minutiae of grains in the diet? Well, because I agree with 99% of what you say. I get excited everyday that I read the VLIFE site, and I am all about the eating strategies and style that you propose. I am just trying to figure out where the black sheep of VLIFE food fits. It makes a difference to me when I am trying to suggest lifestyle changes and eating habits changes to others if I have my own position on the subject. It helps with the inevitable, â??Why,â?? that I get on this subject when I suggest removing grains from their diets.

My thoughts so far go as follows: Don’t if they are going to be a slippery slope back to 100 calorie snack packs, not most of the time (use other carb sources such as Surge Recovery, Surge Workout Fuel, sweet potatoes, and fruits predominately), if you are lean and are not grain intolerant then it is no big deal and can be used prudently post-workout, if you are trying to lose fat just don’t.

I know what you are going to say. Why Ben, when you can use the actual BEST tactical carbs in Surge Recovery, Surge Workout Fuel, FINiBARs, and other products that are so much better? Yeah, I agree 100%, but what if someone canâ??t afford these products? How is the engineered carbs in these products used in any way that wild rice would not be? They are the best, but is it wrong to go with just ok, or the shit in your opinion, if you are using it for the shit purposes (insulin response)? Is the VLIFE supplement-free adaptable?

Is there something that I am not getting with the use of grains post-workout that is harmful in some way (reasoning why whole grains in this way would still ALWAYS be considered shit)? The only reasoning that I can think of is that they are harmful to health and body in some way (anti-nutrients, hence the paleo references). Since you don’t buy into this as much (as I donâ??t either), there must be another reason. Maybe it is that you would rather not suggest the use of these carb sources because you feel that giving a little ground on this would open Pandoraâ??s Box and others would rationalize big pasta dinners following a light workout? I can understand that reasoning. I just donâ??t quite buy that grains are ALWAYS shit, well at least not just yet.

I respect your thoughts and thank you for your time. You run an amazing site, and would like to thank you for all you do. I look forward to what is to come here at VLIFE.

Well, there really isn’t a tactical use for grains. Grains are “new” to humans. We thrived without them; we never adapted to them. This site sums it up nicely. The whole paper he’s talking about, Cereal Grains: Humanity’s Double-Edged Sword by Loren Cordain, is even better:
http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2010/09/20/amber-waves-of-pain/ That’s pretty much all you need to know about grains.

Now, can you “get away” with some “better” grains? Some people do so better than others, but not many really “get away” with it. They just aren’t presenting symptoms yet, or they’re not associating their issues with grain eating.

And the fiber in whole grains would slow everything down so they’re actually pretty crappy for post-workout. You want fast carbs and protein after training, not sluggish grain carbs.

Another good blog: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ His book, Protein Power, was where I first heard some anti-grain sentiments. Sadly, I ignored it for 10 years.

I rolled my eyes at this anti-grain stuff for a long time, so I do understand your reluctance. And it’s always good to be skeptical.

Edit: I will add that most people would make great health and physique improvements is they dumped white bread, pasta, bagels, etc. and moved to only oatmeal, whole corn, plain rice, etc. That’s a step in the right direction. But removing all grains or 99% of them (hard to escape them all – and I don’t freak out over a nice grilled ear of corn) is the ultimate goal. I’d say this is especially true if someone has always struggled with fat loss. The easier weight gain is for someone, the better they’ll do going grain-free.

And I have to throw in that I’m talking about non-steroid users here, as I always am. Otherwise someone will pop in and remind us that professional bodybuilders eat grains. Of course, their health is wrecked, they’re pretty fat and bloated most of the year, and they use so many drugs that they can scratch their butts and lose fat and gain muscle, but yeah, they do eat grains. Whatever that’s worth.

Chris,

I agree with you. I have really have gone grain free 99% of the time. But my goals are such that I will allow myself to break the rules on a rare occasion and not freak about it.

I really wanted to hear your reasoning on how you came to your conclusion on this subject as I am finding my way as well. Its about the journey. I am just glad that you are here to help others jump light years ahead if they started their journey on their own and tried to find their own way. I recommend this site to all. Those that have to change body composition and those that want to focus on health and longevity.

What foods would you use post-workout if you did not use supplements? I havent read Paleo-Diet for the athlete, but from what I understand Cordain recommends meat and potato style meals. Maybe some fruit to this as well? Just curious as to what foods post-workout you would recommend if one chose not to use supps.

[quote]Wolfman155 wrote:
Chris,

I agree with you. I have really have gone grain free 99% of the time. But my goals are such that I will allow myself to break the rules on a rare occasion and not freak about it.

I really wanted to hear your reasoning on how you came to your conclusion on this subject as I am finding my way as well. Its about the journey. I am just glad that you are here to help others jump light years ahead if they started their journey on their own and tried to find their own way. I recommend this site to all. Those that have to change body composition and those that want to focus on health and longevity.

What foods would you use post-workout if you did not use supplements? I havent read Paleo-Diet for the athlete, but from what I understand Cordain recommends meat and potato style meals. Maybe some fruit to this as well? Just curious as to what foods post-workout you would recommend if one chose not to use supps.
[/quote]

Certainly wouldn’t be milk and grains! :wink:

I’d go with low-fat meat like chicken (dietary fat, like fiber, would “slow” things down) and a starchier carb like a sweet potato.

[quote]Chris Shugart wrote:
Edit: I will add that most people would make great health and physique improvements is they dumped white bread, pasta, bagels, etc. and moved to only oatmeal, whole corn, plain rice, etc. That’s a step in the right direction. But removing all grains or 99% of them (hard to escape them all – and I don’t freak out over a nice grilled ear of corn) is the ultimate goal. I’d say this is especially true if someone has always struggled with fat loss. The easier weight gain is for someone, the better they’ll do going grain-free.

[/quote]

Agree with this 100%. Thanks Chris for your help.

Chris,

Have you ever thought about cooking with bean flours? I had a friend bring up the cost of almond flour vs wehat flour. She is on a very tight budget, and thought about bean flours as a possible alternative. I don’t know if I would use it as a complete replacement, but maybe one could use it half and half with almond flour to reduce the cost. Your thoughts on this as being something that could be used to reduce the cost of grain free cooking?

[quote]Wolfman155 wrote:
Chris,

Have you ever thought about cooking with bean flours? I had a friend bring up the cost of almond flour vs wehat flour. She is on a very tight budget, and thought about bean flours as a possible alternative. I don’t know if I would use it as a complete replacement, but maybe one could use it half and half with almond flour to reduce the cost. Your thoughts on this as being something that could be used to reduce the cost of grain free cooking?[/quote]

I haven’t played with bean flours. Beans are a bit carby for heavy use, plus Dr. Lonnie Lowery told me that bean flours give off a very beany flavor, so you do have to mix them with other flours [1:3 ratio I think he said, with bean flour being 1.) For those reasons, I haven’t played with bean flours. Coconut flour is okay, just trickier to use. Probably pricey though. I just buy almond flour in bulk online. Saves some dough.

(See what I did there? Dough.)

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